« Jeff Jack claims first music venue victim |
| More teabagging »
Please help me fill in the ?????. Thanks in advance.
Posted by m1ek on April 15, 2009 06:33 PM | Permalink
TrackBack URL for this entry:http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/cgi-m1ek/MT/mt-tb.cgi/540
That must have been the fault of all those Reds under the bed.
I always find it rather touching to hear right-wingers hearkening back to the Golden Age of the 1950s -- you know the time when segregation was the norm and marginal tax rates were in the low... er... 90 percents.
I applaud the teabaggers for actively using their free speech rights, but when all the keynote teabagging speakers (that I saw) are either right-wing pundits or Republican politicians, it's kind of hard to keep up the pretense that this is somehow a grass roots, non-partisan movement.
April 15, 2009 08:02 PM
One of your google ads is for the treatment of bile duct cancer . . .
For some reason, every time I hear "teabagging," I'm reminded of Stewie Griffith.
April 15, 2009 08:34 PM
April 15, 2009 09:15 PM
AC, that is awesome - google ads has now proven itself worth the trouble.
April 16, 2009 09:12 AM
Please note the following:
-the top rates rose that high during the FDR & Truman years, and were called socialism at the time.
-they got dropped below today's top rate during the reign of St. Ronald of Bel Air
-they were allowed to rise to today's top rate during the time of a guy who falsely promised "Read my lips- no new taxes", and was limited to a single term based mainly on his failure to live up to that promise.
I will agree that there are a lot of ignorant "right-wingers" out there that don't know history, but can you point out specific right-wingers that are harkening back to the glory years of the '50s, other than the reactionary in your head (i.e. strawman)? The '50s were a nightmare for the cause of liberty, with confiscatory taxation, the rise of the national-security state, and abysmal human-rights for non-WASP Americans.
April 16, 2009 09:26 AM
Scooby, you are the first apparently self-identified conservative that DOESN'T harken back to the 50's. Ike is practically a God to most of those guys, and they conveniently ignore his military-industrial complex speech on the way out.
Anyways, what would you call the entire period from 1930-1982? Socialism is obviously way too weak a term if it can be used to describe a rise in the top marginal rate from 33 to 36 or 36 to 39. I await your answer with anticipation.
April 16, 2009 09:41 AM
I'll play if you do- I asked for examples, instead of spout strawman BS talking about "most of those guys". We can both agree that your imaginary conservative is a complete moron.
Just because the reactionary in your head thinks the '50s were all "Leave it to Beaver" and no "Good Night and Good Luck" doesn't mean that anyone is actually calling for a return to the Eisenhower administration.
BTW, I wouldn't lump myself in with the right-populist tools and the Republicans that co-opted them yesterday. Most of them seem to like government plenty when it's putting a boot to the neck of a dirty fence-jumper or keeping dirty commies and sodomites from polluting their precious bodily fluids.
April 16, 2009 10:18 AM
I don't take homework assignments; but I relented in this case; it's actually very hard to get anything (pro OR con) via the google terms I could think of, but here's one:
It's a common internet tactic to bury your opponent with homework asking them to 'prove' something we all know to be generally true, by the way. Go ahead and say once again that most conservatives don't harken back to the 1950s.
April 16, 2009 10:29 AM
m'kay. You've found one guy that titles his essay "Why I Am a Conservative" and has one line about growing up in the '50s and mentioning the "traditional values" of that time, but also describes the confusion of the labeling of values as "liberal" and "conservative". It also ends saying "I am a liberal. I guess." I'm not sure if your find supports your argument.
Speaking of "common internet tactics", it's also pretty common to claim unsupportable BS is "common knowledge"; this is often combined with complaints about someone "assigning homework" or even "expecting a logically supportable argument" when someone expects back-up.
Of course, it's also common for two people to argue around each other without any effect, especially when dealing with terms that the two define differently. Oh well, c'est la vie.
April 16, 2009 11:36 AM
Hey, you promised.
And your counter is nonsense - most of the time when presented with insistent demands that obvious generalizations be backed up, people satisfy them for a while and only then realize they're being played for a sucker.
Note that the first commenter isn't me; and isn't even a native. The generalization has been broad enough that even people who grew up in other countries know the score.
April 16, 2009 12:03 PM
Two simple reasons why I say conservatives hearken back to the 50s:
1) The sexual revolution
2) Taking prayer out of schools.
Now when did these events occur? Why yes, the early 1960s, of course.
I don't know how many times since coming to the US 15 years ago I have heard the religious right bewailing these two events and calling for a return to "traditional" family values. Ask any of them when they thought America's decline and demise began, and they will point to the early 1960s just about every time. (That's extremely easy to check through Google.)
So yes, they certainly do look longingly back at the 1950s as a better time, the last time when family values "counted for something" and God was still given due deference.
Sure there are probably a few libertarians out there who understand the idiocy of such things, but I didn't see too many of them in amongst the teabaggers yesterday.
April 16, 2009 01:50 PM
Tax rates is really a weak data point. Historically taxes were much, much easier to avoid/underreport. A better yardstick in my opinion is to look at tax revenues as compared to GDP.
As you can see the federal goverment has grown steadily and with the current stimulus it is about to take a big jump.
April 16, 2009 02:02 PM
The data don't support your thesis; the 'big jump' is from 18.0 to 18.8, which is still well within the range of the Clinton years. You know, when our nation was collapsing all around us with millions unemployed and people getting foreclosed upon left and right.
April 16, 2009 02:05 PM
Misread the future estimates so you are correct but they are after all only estimates. More importantly look at how stable revenue has been despite historically wild swings in tax rates. With current and projected spending at some point the feds will have to dramatically increase revenue. The bet is that by then GDP will have improved dramtically. If it hasn't then we will have a very big problem.
April 16, 2009 02:46 PM
I certainly agree that Americans will have to make a choice eventually--between higher taxes or a weak social safety net. So far they have chosen the latter, whereas almost all other modern industrialized nations have chosen the former.
Having lived in both for long periods of time, I can see the strengths and weaknesses in both systems.
I've always said that America is a great place to live if you have money and your health. Trouble is, if you lose one or the other then there's a much greater risk of losing everything.
But the choice isn't really between socialism and capitalism. It's between a little more socialism vs. a little less socialism -- or a little more capitalism vs. a little less capitalism if you like. America will always have a system that is a compromise between the two. The argument is really about which side of the half-way line we should be.
April 16, 2009 03:41 PM
And I firmly believe that the problem right now is that we spent more than we brought in during a time when we should have been ringing up surpluses (Clinton did, after all), while simultaneously cutting taxes in the face of a war of choice.
To only now discover the religion of less spending (wars count too!) and lower taxes (Bush taxed the future more with the war in Iraq than Obama will with all the bailouts combined) is just too much to take. Really.
April 16, 2009 04:33 PM
school prayer? sexual revolution? Now I see the problem- you were talking about social conservatives. I'm not sure what their opinions on the '50s have to do with marginal income tax rates or economic systems in general.
In my experience, social cons are just as likely as their godless heathen counterparts to have ass backward economic & fiscal views- see Richard Nixon if you need an example (wage & price controls, screwy monetary policy, etc.) or Mike Huckabee for a non-dead example.
If those are the conservatives you are talking about, then sure- I won't argue against the premise that they loves them some '50s. I thought that you were talking about fiscal conservatives, seeing that you were talking about fiscal/economic issues.
Oh, and since you asked- I'd call the fed gov't, going back at least as far as 1933, the worst kind of socialist- the kind that only socializes the losses of cronies, subsidizing their business from the public fisc.
April 16, 2009 04:35 PM
That still didn't really answer the question. If 33-36% is 'capitalism' and 36-39% is 'socialism', then what do you call 60, 70, 80, and 90%? Not 'the worst kind of socialism'; I really don't think that cuts it.
Fascism? Communism? Totalitarianism? Chavezism? Let me know.
April 16, 2009 04:37 PM
Actually I don't recall Clinton ever having a 'surplus'. We temporarily decreased borrowing but certainly didn't pay down debt. I think it is safe to say that our politicians (on both sides) are completely incapable of saving. If there is a surplus they'll spend it.
April 17, 2009 10:21 AM
By the standard used by every administration (not treating SS and Medicare as the lockboxes suggested by Gore), Clinton did indeed pay down debt.
April 17, 2009 10:36 AM
It's a matter of degree. Your (new) question is like asking "you say 100 is a number; what does that make 1000? A supernumber? A hypernumber?"
Your little chart is just a bit too simplistic, using the single data point of the marginal rate of the top income bracket, without considering even other income tax parameters (such as deductions from taxable income, which was extremely different before the 1986 reforms), or other non-tax related issues such as increased centralized meddling with private economic affairs, spending far in excess of revenues and the associated borrowing which increases costs for private borrowing, a wide open tap at the Fed which will devalue the currency and further distort pricing signals, and now nationalization of major segments of the economy (banking and durable goods manufacturing for now, health care and energy to come).
Does a 10% increase in the top marginal income tax rate alone equal "socialism"? No. Is that the sole action taken and/or planned by Congress & the executive branch? No.
April 17, 2009 11:20 AM
April 17, 2009 11:23 AM
That's really really wimpy.
As a matter of fact, the main change being made to the tax code IS the change to the top marginal rate. There's no other change which is going to affect very many people, other than the CUTS, of course.
As for "supernumber", "hypernumber"; it's your buddies who have claimed that 33-36% is capitalism and 36-39% is socialism; not me. If you want to disavow them, please feel free to do so; otherwise, the question still stands: if we've just made a big leap into socialism, what the hell do we call the 1930s-1980s?
April 17, 2009 11:36 AM
Wimpy? Were you an extra in "Idiocracy"? Are you going to accuse me of "talking like a fag" next?
Here's you're next homework assignment: please identify these hordes of "[my] buddies" that are saying that everything was honky-dory except for the change in the top marginal rate? You keep making that kind of claim, and I think the only voice saying that is one of the voices in your head. Do you picture these imaginary buddies of mine as top-hat-and-monocle clad plutocrats that carry their riches around in cloth bags marked with dollar signs? Do they light their cigars with $1000 bills? Do they sleep on piles of gold coins and fist-sized jewels?
From my view, it seems that the dominant message of the "teabaggers" ([beavis]heh, heh, heh- teabaggers- heh, heh[/beavis]) was that things were bad enough before and our fearless leaders are making things worse, not that everything was fine until the marginal rate on incomes exceeding $X per year was raised back to where it was 8 years ago. I didn't see any complaints about the top marginal income tax rate on any protest signs in the news. Do you have any evidence that there is anybody claiming that we've gone from zero-to-gulags based on your single narrow measure?
April 17, 2009 02:51 PM
Just pointing out that for a guy who argued so aggressively, you sure did clam up when it came time to give a strong label for 90% marginal tax rates.
And, yes, for the second time, they are relevant: the only major change in the tax code that will result in higher taxes for anybody is the rise in the top marginal rate.
Your buddies refers to the teabaggers.
Finally, anybody who would call 33-36% "bad enough before" is a retard, given the history clearly evident in this graph. Idiocracy enough fro you?
April 17, 2009 03:42 PM
Are you really that simple-minded? You think that the only thing that matters is the marginal rate of the top income bracket? Does the ability to look beyond one number in a 17,000 page tome (26 USC and 26 CFR, aka the tax code) to see at the bigger picture only come with developmental disabilities?
Why a graph of that number? Why not a graph of the waist size of the Senate minority leader from 1917-present? That's only slightly less relevant to the grievances of those protesting the other day than the top marginal income tax rate.
Unless you can point out anyone that is claiming that the 10% bump in the top rate is "socialism" while current rates is "pure freedom, with rainbows and puppies on top", your whole premise is full of shit, and just an excuse to say "teabagger" while giggling like a flatulent 8-year-old boy.
April 17, 2009 04:27 PM
Remember personal info?